Loving Hands, Calm Minds and Sleeping Babies

I just read the book (it takes about an hour to read it) Loving Hands: The Traditional Art of Baby Massage by Frederick Leboyer. The concept of baby massage is that it will help soothe the baby and release any tension in the baby's body and of course that it will be a good bonding time for mother and child--keeping them connected as a unit. I'm sure Daddy could do it as well. I used this technique before bed last night and I thought I'd try to do it regularly each week or as often as possible. The book notes that baby massage should start around the age of 4 week and Owen is 4 weeks this weekend, we are going to try to get into this routine.

Right at this moment our child is swaddled up sleeping in his swing listening to our "Sounds from the Womb" record from the late 70's. This is after I vacuumed the carpet to put him into a calm state. We got these great ideas from reading (and watching the video) The Happiest Baby on the Block by Dr. Harvey Karp. This book has been an enormous help (Thank you Jenni for giving it to me) In fact, I think all new parents should check out Dr. Karp's five S's outlined in his book. They are: 1) swaddling 2) side-lying position 3)shhh's 4)swinging and 5) sucking. Karp claims (as many professionals have hypothesized) that the first three months of a newborn's life should really be considered the 4th trimester. In other words, your baby is really still a fetus and needs to have the "comforts of home" which is where the five S's come in handy. The swaddling helps make them feel tight and secured like they were in your womb, the side lying position is just more comfortable and offers a natural calming reflex than their back (back is still safer for sleeping), the shhhhh sound is similar to what they heard in the womb, which happens to be as loud as a vacuum cleaner or hair dryer (Owen loves both noises), swinging imitates the constant motion they felt for 40 weeks and sucking is a natural calming reflex, like the icing on the cake. Swaddling alone doesn't help Owen relax, he has to have about 3 of the S's to really calm down, his favorite being white noise which stops his crying immediately. We have him sleep with a constant white noise machine that makes a hissing sound (supposed to be rain) and I think it helps Matt and Kaibee sleep better too! The first couple of weeks it seems like Owen cried a lot each time he was awake and I wanted to soothe him but it seemed like nothing worked. The reality is most newborns cry often. All they are capable of is pooping, crying and sucking. It isn't until three months that they even have control of their hands and legs... so for all practical purposes I treat Owen as if he's still inside me-- he needs a lot of holding, nursing, cuddling and calming. The techniques we learned from Dr. Karp's book and his video work like a charm-- REALLY. Additionally, it was important to burp him vigorously and he enjoys the pat, pat, thump thump style on his back as a calming method. Owen sleeps 3-4 hours in his bassinet the first time I put him down, I nurse him, burp him, change him then he sleeps 2-3 hours with me each additional time I put him down until morning arrives. When he seems really relaxed, I can put him back into the bassinet. Since I can nurse in the side-lying position with him, it's easy to take him to bed with me. If he's sleeping with me, I just dress him in a onsie but if he's sleeping in the bassinet I usually swaddle him. As with any advice, you must take it with a grain of salt. I don't like to swaddle Owen each time he goes to sleep, I prefer to wear him in either his Moby Wrap , sling, or put him in his bassinet without being swaddled. I guess I don't want him to get used to any one thing too much. Flexibility is key!!

Is it time for more Owen photos?

Gran

Hollye

Well Gran is here this week, and Hollye came up to visit from Phoenix. I need to capture a photo of tia Kate and tia D.kish. It's on my list. This week in Owen news, a bath with Daddy went well in the big tub-- forget those baby baths, he likes hanging in water with Mom and Dad. Also he seems to have calmed down a bit more, don't know if it's from the dairy or if I've been burping him more effectively. I think he's also gotten used to the lovely feeling of pooping. He didn't like it at first. Oh yes, Owen got some Easter ears from Gran (see photo) and also he is wearing a white outfit that was Matt's 35 years ago!! Pretty neat! Deana, our midwife, dropped off that cute hat that she MADE. I don't know a whole lot of doctors that knit hats for their patients... ALSO pretty neat!

I ordered some gDiapers for nights, but have been having great success with the cloth Organic Caboose diapers during the day. I promise to post the birth story photos soon.

Studio time with the new family

Click the KDI photography icon to see the "light table" from the whole photo shoot. If you want to order photos from this session, contact studio@kdiphotography.com

Burp him-- ER, just thump it...

oh man, he's so cute when he sleeps on his side

catching an afternoon nap together

Moby wrap. I LOVE IT

Dr. Evil ?

the bear suit! Good for cold weather-- Owen loves it. Dad just had to put him in this... Matt loves it, actually

Kay I sware to post something worthy of mommy bloggers nation-wide soon. Kudos to Mary Jessica for doing so...

In the adventures of Owen-landia, I discovered something quite valuable (thanks to Amy Spangler) of Amy's Babies--Amy is the mother of a friend (Adam) from high school. She is the AUTHORITY on breastfeeding and that is an understatement. She actually wrote a great breastfeeding resource book, check out those links. Anywhoo Owen was having what I thought to be fussy/colicky episodes around his pooping and gaseous times-- also known to Matt and I as the alien cries. Boy was I wrong, the little guy doesn't mind pooping at all. He was fussing because he had gas bubbles in his stomach that I wasn't releasing because I wasn't being "aggressive" enough with my burping. Soooo ladies, mommies, grandma's, etc... cup that hand over that baby's back and thump that little dude firmly. Amy recommended I do this prior to nursing, mid-nursing and of course the popular after-nursing. Anyway, like magic, his fussing went away during nursing and I got a few more smiles and happy baby vibes. In any case, I am cutting out dairy (just to test it for 14 days) because Matt has a dairy sensitivity and I don't want my little guy to be in pain because of cow's milk. It's worth a try, plus if you know me, dairy is a main staple for me so I should probably shed some weight pronto. I mean no Dairy Queen for 2 weeks?? Unheard of--- now of all the things I sacrificed for this baby... this is the ringer.

Cloth diapers: a brief (HA HA) manifesto

I haven't posted here in so long; I've just been enjoying reading about Cameron's amazing journey. Let's all give the lady a hand, hear hear! (Clap, clap, clap, etc.)

OK, let's talk about cloth diapers.

Science will tell you that cloth diapers are better than disposable for the environment. This is a fact; look it up. If you find research to the contrary, keep in mind that it was, with absolute certainty, funded by diaper-making companies. This is also a fact.

Now, I know this, and yet I myself have used (and still do, sometimes) disposable diapers. No one is perfect. And the kind of diapers you use has nothing to do with whether you are an excellent mother. But if you are interested in cloth diapering, I thought I’d share what I’ve found out through personal experience (especially since a few people have been asking me cloth diapering advice lately).

Fending off the well-intentioned
I’ve heard a lot of stories from other mamas and friends of mamas about well-meaning family members trying to dissuade them from using cloth diapers. It makes sense when you think about it: everyone wants a new mom to be well-rested (HA HA HA) and happy (HO HO HO), so they encourage her to keep things easy, uncomplicated. Something these folks might not realize is that cloth diapering is a totally different story from the days of our mothers and grandmothers—or even diapering moms 10 years ago. It’s positively easy these days. The level of ease varies depending on what kind of diapers you use (keep reading!), but all in all, it’s not so hard when you get the hang of it.

A rainbow of butt coverings
If you get into cloth diapering to save money (as I did), stick with the basics: cotton pre-folds and covers. Pins aren’t necessary any more with the invention of the blessed Snappi; and that might not even be necessary with certain snap-on/Velcro covers (as opposed to pull-up covers; think underwear, more or less).

If you have a bit more dough and are primarily interested with ease, consider pocket diapers (with removable inserts, such as Fuzzi-Bunz) or all-in-ones (just what it sounds like – no inserts, just one solid piece of diaper, such as bumGenius).

Personally, I scored a small army of Fuzzi-Bunz second-hand, which is a great way to ease into cloth-diapering. But (maybe because they were second-hand), Tommy would get more rashes with them, and so I generally stick to pre-folds. For covers, I’ve both inherited and hand-knit a few pull-on covers (sometimes called “soakers”) that I use with a Snappi. I also use Bummis Super Whisper Wraps, no Snappi needed. (Don’t you love those brand names?)

What about poop?
Ah, yes indeed, what about it. Well, my friends, once babies start eating solids, their poop correspondingly gets solid. Shake that mess in the toilet, man. I keep a small bucket next to the changing table to facilitate trips to the bathroom. Easy-peasy.

Washing
If money is no object, consider a diaper service near you. The one where I live supplies diapers (but not covers) and a handy diaper pail (for, like, $12 extra or something). It’s so easy: once a week, you leave the dirty diaper pail outside near your door, they come by and empty it and leave a pack of clean diapers. The price is comparable to buying name-brand disposables.

I choose to wash diapers at home, again to save money. It is not nearly as gross as you think. I use Charlie’s Soap for this (and for all of our laundry – super cheap when you work out how many loads you get from one bag). The diapers pre-soak in cold water, go through a hot/cold cycle, and then an extra rinse. Some people add baking soda and/or vinegar for extra freshness (or to get rid of yeast); recipes and methods abound online.

I happen to live in an area that’s been hit with a historic drought. We save water like insane people preparing for the apocalypse otherwise, but that does bring me to…

Drought: A word on composting and E.C.
I’ve tried and enjoyed gDiapers, which are basically cloth covers with a plastic liner, in which you snap inserts that can be flushed or composted (the ones that aren’t poopy, and don’t have diaper ointment on them). They’re too expensive for us to use them regularly, but the upside is I use those cloth covers constantly with regular cotton pre-folds.

I’ve never had the gumption to try Elimination Communication, which involves no diapers at all – but I personally know women in real life who use and swear by this method.

My own experience
To be honest, I hated cloth diapers at first. I just didn’t get it, and part of it was my hang-up in those early days of parenting that there was a Right Way to do things and a Wrong Way. I couldn’t figure out how to fold the diapers the Right Way or use the covers the Right Way. Later I realized that there is no Right Way or Wrong Way, just Your Way. I have since come up with various ways of folding and snapping that suit our needs well. Learn to embrace deviation and invention, if you can. That might be the hardest part of all.

We still use disposables, as I mentioned — Tommy seems prone to eczema and other rashy episodes, so putting them on at night and while traveling really helps. There are days where we use only cloth diapers, and days where I go through far too many disposables. I figure that anything we can do to reduce waste is helpful, and the goal is to do your best.

Diapers: the cloth episodes

So I am determined NOT to fill the landfill with poopy Pampers. The first two weeks we went through like 150 diapers or something insane. Yes, they wick moisture like the dickens and yes, they are fairly Daddy friendly. Yes, it's easy to toss them in a bag, snap up the onsie and call it a day; however, is this really what's best for the environment, my baby's bottom and most of all my guilty conscience? Nope!
In my noble quest, however, there is a bit of a learning curve and lots of pee on my shirts. I think I've got it now, thanks to my friend Aurora who came over yesterday and helped me learn the ancient art of "pre-folding" diapers. Now the term pre-fold is a bit like clipless bike pedals. Both terms don't make any sense considering the actual application of the item is the opposite of the name itself. The diapers are NOT pre-folded.. YOU have to fold them. The pedals are not clipless-- they indeed have clips. Anywhooo, I digress...the big innovation in diapers in the last 35 years is a little do-dad called a snappy. Yes, snappy is my friend. He holds the diaper in place instead of pins. Pins are for the birds but snappy is for Cameron and the modern mommy. Anyway, so Owen is wearing cute little cloth diapers with a wool cover. They get wet but we change him approximately 2,000 times in one day so it doesn't matter. I would love to hear other reviews and comments about cloth diapers (even though I know no one reads my blog besides my family... one can dream, right)...

Owen's Birth Story

photo by dawn kish

So when you get into this whole baby business, you find out the details of people's birth "story." This really is only interesting to those who have given birth or plan to soon... so that's my little disclaimer. Also this is epic, I mean it's me, Cameron, did you expect a summary or the entire journey? So get a cup of tea and a comfy seat...

We were invited over to our former neighbor's house for dinner on Thursday Feb. 28th--homemade enchiladas-- THANKS RYIAN! The food was awesome, but at 3:30AM on Friday Feb. 29th (leap year) I woke up with some indigestion... or was it a contraction? Hard to tell, but, oh wait, there it is again... a little "pain in the uterus" which feels like a normal cramp. I could hear our Bradley instructor, Heidi, saying, "sleep though early contractions if you can..." so I took off for the guest room to make myself as comfortable as possible.

The next morning I got back in bed with Matt and said, "I think this is for real." He popped open his eyes, looked at me with a sleepy grin and said, "I guess I should stay home from work today." We actually debated if this was the best course of action. Early contractions are strangely peaceful and not that painful. As we were getting a game plan together, my friend Wendy called because we had plans to get the dogs out for a walk, and I thought to myself, "might as well keep business as usual until this gets more serious." So Matt and I and Kaibee drove to the trail head and met Wendy and her dogs for an hour walk. All the while, Matt is timing my contractions which are about 10-12 minutes apart... some closer together like 5 -6 minutes all lasting between 30 seconds and one minute. Nothing was too painful at this point and I could walk through most of them.

When we got home it was about 9:45AM and I had an interview with Flag Live (the local alternative weekly publication) in regards to the Flagstaff Mountain Film Festival. I am one of the directors of the event. Anyway, I had to cancel that appointment because I thought it would be to hard to concentrate on anything but my contractions at that point even though they weren't THAT bad, they were frequent: 10 minutes apart. So Matt and I begin to prepare the house... we finally get the car seat in my car, pull out all the birth supplies the midwives provide us, and get out our birth supply checklist. We called family to let them know, and then it was mid-afternoon. We notified the Midwifery about our progress and they said "keep going," and to call back when contractions are regular and closer 3-5 minutes apart. So we took a quick walk around the block -- maybe 15-20 minutes. It was 60 degrees and sunny here in Flagstaff. THANK GOD (it seemed to snow every other day this winter). I was so grateful at this moment that I didn't have to guess when to go to the hospital. Sitting in the car is not comfortable AT ALL. It was nice to walk around home and be by ourselves.

Matt had the brilliant idea of walking more in the early afternoon. It really didn't sound good to me until he sweetened the deal with a chocolate malt and some french fries at a local hamburger joint. Mind you, we live downtown and along the way we had to stop at main intersections and I had to lean on Matt while ohhing and ahhing and breathing to relax during the contractions. We must have looked like a very loving couple stopping every block to hug. Kaibee came with us, of course, and was happy to have all this great 'outside' time with Mom & Dad. Walking really speed up the contractions but I was glad to get back home where I could lay down, which slowed down my contractions.

At this point it's 5PM and my contractions are variable and most are still 8-10 minutes apart lasting 1 minute and somewhat painful but not that bad. I missed my artsy pregnancy photo shoot scheduled for 4PM. I could NOT bring myself to walk down to the studio, even just to get a few shots. Moving is annoying and I found I liked to stay in one place, I was moving to pee and drink water. It was about this time that my friend, Dawn Kish , showed up for moral support and also to photograph the whole process (slide show to come...couldn't have done it without her)

Around 7PM Deana, our midwife on call, showed up even though we hadn't called her. I think she has a sixth sense. She wanted to check in with us... that's when we found out I was 5cm already and progressing well. Deana unpacked all her gear and we all got ready for the long night (and potentially next day) ahead. At this point, I was suffering a little more because the contractions just kept getting harder and more intense. It's a bit like running a marathon but not knowing when you are going to finish...only you get these short breaks between each hard effort.

It took another couple hours of lying on the bed sideways and breathing through the contractions, drinking water and getting up to pee for me to open to 8cm. Now, I was through the rough stuff (or so they told me). My mind began to shut down regular personality functions (like making comments, being humorous or having modesty) and I felt myself slipping away into a very primal and internal place. I could hear what was going on but didn't care--my eyes were closed and I was only focused on the work ahead: stay relaxed and breathe through the pain. I seemed to lose my personality all together. I even exclaimed things that I never say like, "oh my goodness..." (it was more like OHHHHHHmyyyyygooooooodneeeeeeesss).

I got into the tub which sounded like a nice comfy place but it was hard for me to relax in there because I couldn't float entirely and I couldn't prop myself up on anything to rest. In retrospect it might have been nice to have Matt in there with me--holding me as a back support. Deana was taking notes in the other room and came in for a quick Doppler check to hear the baby's heart rate and said, "from the sounds Cameron is making it might be time to get her out of the tub and check her progress." I shuttered at the thought of moving between contractions--it's really really uncomfortable to move, but move I did...this time to a standing position holding the bed rail---"OUCH" say the contraction notes...this was uncomfortable AND I was starting to feel the minor urge to push...but I couldn't bring myself to say anything. I should mention that I was getting hot and Matt kept fanning me and changing a cold wash rag for about 4 hours or so. Matt was truly amazing staying by my side the entire 25 hour period. I couldn't have done it without him. I knew I wasn't quite 10cm yet but I had to be close...Deana thought we'd give it a couple standing pushes and then do an exam--- Voila!!!

I was given the green light to push. Everything changed at this point--pushing felt way better and then again I felt very unsure if I was doing it right or if I was pushing hard enough. It was sort of like starting over from the beginning after getting to be an expert at contractions. It was about this time that Mary Ann, the second midwife on call, showed up for backup (Womancare midwifery always have two CNM's on every birth). I noticed that my contractions were different, they felt like they were in my uterus now rather than the cervix and this was an improvement. An hour went by... pushing and everyone saying "oh your making great progress." At some point I felt like I wasn't pushing to my full potential but I didn't want to push TOO hard for fear of tearing-- so I mustered up the energy to ask, "ladies, how hard can I push?" In unison they all said "HARD"-- so then I really bore down and it seemed I was getting better and better reactions from everyone with every push... "OH WOW!" and , "Just like that!" I noticed that when I would flex my feet I got better reactions from everyone so I tried that a couple of times. Between pushes I was taking short quick breaths as if I had just sprinted down the street. I remember thinking, "Wow, am I working that hard?" I didn't feel like I was exerting the same type of effort as a sprint. Obviously my body was getting a full workout but perhaps natural adrenaline had kicked in to disguise the pain? I assume this is because the whole uterus is squeezing, your birth canal is stretching and everything is working together at this point to help this little baby make his way into the world. I was not anxious at all during the entire process, everyone seemed really relaxed around me and I followed their lead. I think this was a critical element to speed up the delivery. Mary Ann would approach my belly after each contraction to listen to the heartbeat to make sure the baby's heart rate was not decelerating. They kept saying things like, "This baby doesn't mind these contractions." All I could say was "water" or "chap stick" and I could tell that we were getting close.

Deana let me feel the head with my fingers-- about up to my knuckle. Another big push... Deana mentioned to Matt that if he still wanted to catch the baby that he should come around soon-- I'm sure he was glad to relinquish his fan and cold wash rag. I remember thinking if Matt is going somewhere, we must be close. Matt left my side, moved around to get into position and I gave it three big pushes in a row, holding each time. The head was crowning and everyone had elated voices, especially Dawn. I was listening closely for Dawn's reaction because I knew it would be more amazing to her than all the other seasoned veterans in the room (even Matt has seen 10 or so births from our class videos). I said, "oh that burns" and made some really primal noises. They asked me wait to push again to make sure proper stretching occurred. A moment went by, I asked to push -- they gave me the signal and out popped the head. Deana checked for the cord around his neck, all was clear, everything was perfect, so I pushed one last time to deliver my baby boy into this world.

Matt got a look at him first and they laid him on my tummy all gooey and wet and wrapped him in some warm blankets. He immediately cried a couple big sobs and I remember my first thought, "now that is a big baby that just came out of me"--Matt appeared right next to me with big weepy eyes and noted, "it's a boy," which was really exciting since we didn't find out until that moment. I was so glad to be at the finish line of the athletic challenge that I had almost forgotten about the prize-- my little baby boy. It was one of life's most perfect and surreal moments. I didn't cry then, but it makes me cry now. I DID IT! I'm DONE! That's what I was thinking. I also remember thinking, "That thing is HUGE!" I suppose it's all about perspective because he seems tiny to the outside world but huge to have come out of my body.

I was not done yet as the placenta still needs to be delivered. Also baby Owen presented his little fist right up under his chin before the final push, which, as you can imagine, there isn't enough room for, so I had a grade 2 tear, which Mary Ann sewed up a bit later. For now, Owen was ready to nurse but was I? It was harder than I thought but with a lot of pointers and immediate supervision from Mary Ann and Deana, Owen latched on and away he sucked for 45 minutes. Running through my head was the advice: "elbow down, left arm up, hold breast with my right hand and shape it like his mouth." Phew, that's a lot to remember at first... plus my biceps got a good workout holding 8 lbs. Mary Ann tended to Owen making sure he was doing well: she checked his vitals while he breastfeed. Breastfeeding immediately helps with baby/mother bonding and additionally it promotes uterine contractions to release the placenta and avoid a hemorrhage. If you can successfully breastfeed, you probably don't need Pitocin (medication commonly given after the birth to contract the uterus--the midwives even carry it in case of a hemorrhage). Matt held the baby, I got stitched up (bummer, but oh well) and then the birth team went downstairs to eat a snack and make us a snack. We were left as our new little family got to bond in our own bed and Kaibee even jumped up there with us to say hello. She was mostly asleep during the entire birth about 4-5 feet from the bed and was only worried about me a couple of times.

15-20 minutes later the birth team was back to do the official baby exam, they changed the sheets, dressed Owen, weighed him, washed all our birth linens, packed up their gear, helped me get a quick bath and set us up with everything we'd need to get through the day. It was 8:30AM when they left. Deana had been with me for 12 hours and Mary Ann for 7 (she already delivered a 9 pound baby earlier that evening). I cannot comment enough about how great their customer service was. I felt like the Queen of Sheba from each office visit to the final moment when they left our home. Mary Ann came back to our house on three different occasions in three days to check in on my progress, do some blood tests with Owen and make sure the nursing was going well. I couldn't have imagined Owen's birth any other way. It was truly a miracle and I am so glad we stuck to our guns and had a home birth. I know many of our family and friends were worried (even if they didn't say anything) but if they could've been there, they would've felt the same as we did: confident, relaxed and in the hands of true professionals. It wasn't scary at all to have a home birth, it was empowering and a beautiful rite of passage.

Day 12: first bath

This birth story is hard to finish writing... so more photos...we are sleeping more at night and I'm taking everyone's advice and sleeping with the baby once during the day. Who doesn't love a nap? This was Owen's first bath... technically second, but the first one I'd rather forget. We got a "Euro tub" and that was a bad idea. Took that thing back. It looks like a trash can and it's impossible to wash a newborn in it. Needless to say that incident ended in bowel movements, peeing on Dad, Mom in hysterics, a cold baby, and well the fear of bath #2, so luckily we redeemed ourselves.

he likes it, PHEW...

I love this one. My little Ewok

a very relaxed baby post bathfirst "boy" outfit-- firetrucks

First Moments

photo by Dawn Kish

Just had a chance to look through the photographs from the birth-- can't wait to put together a slideshow... maybe tomorrow. I made some hilarious faces. I'll post that with the birth story. This is a moment from about 5 minutes after birth...Owen is already breastfeeding. Just look at that proud Daddy!

Photos of Owen part III

As always click to see bigger images. baby folds

Dad giving tummy time coaching

that smile again...

this is the view I have about 6 hours a day

Hang in there, I'm going to review the Happiest Baby on the Block book once I've finished it-- I read it while I'm nursing. Until then you'll have to enjoy more photos of Owen.

We are settling into our little routine... I'm getting way more sleep this week than last, I can finally put my engagement ring back on (wedding ring still tight), I seem to have lost most of the "jelly belly" and now I'm just left with fat thighs, butt and flabby abs. I know it will all go away with the breastfeeding and walking so I'm fine :) Owen is so fun to just sit and stare at.

I'm planning on switching to the cloth diapers soon... still figuring that out.

More Photos of Owen

first smile?

soaking up some UV rays to stay pink

first visit with Dr. Ron

"OWEN"-- already learning to form his "O"

Kaibee is scared of the noisemaker

eyes open time

This Daddy is seriously in love-- he just looks at him all day

cute little mouth!

Well I'm glad to put my documentary skills to work. Enjoy some more photos of our little man.

It's a BOY: Welcome Owen Wyatt Clark!

double click images to see larger!
Looking pretty good for pulling an all nighter. 8:30 AM March 1st! It took 24 hours from start to finish, including the "starter" contractions at the beginning. These are our CNM's Certified Nurse-Midwives (L-R) Dena, Mary Ann and Michele (student)

baby Owen and Daddy

baby Owen with a full head of DARK hair!! He loves his hands

Kaibee and her new blanket (thanks Phyllis)-- it's the colors of our downstairs, actually. Kaibee has done marvelous! She's a champ. Slept through my crazy noises all night...

We had a boy at 4AM March 1st. I'm exhausted! It was fun! I had a great team here helping me get this baby delivered. 22 hours of contractions start to finish and 2 hours of pushing.

8lbs
21 inches

Great birth story coming....